Karina Melvin struggled with setting up and growing her private practice in Ireland. The biggest issue she encountered was valuing herself properly.
After researching online, she decided to hire Lynn Grodzky. After seeing success from that, she hired Kelly & Miranda from ZynnyMe.
And Miranda pushed her to charge more for her services, to properly value her time and her experience. And ironically, once Karina charged 50% more, her private practice filled up.
Best Marketing Move for Business
- Her website
Links & Resources Mentioned in This Episode
- Lynn Grodzki
- Artful Eating – One of Karina’s Businesses
- Karina’s Private Practice Website
Thanks to Karina for joining me this week. Until next time!
TranscriptClick here to read the Transcript
Karina: I absolutely am Perry, yeah.
Perry: Alright, fantastic. We are so excited to get a new perspective on here from the other side of the pond. Karina is over from Ireland and we’re going to have so much fun on this episode.
Karina: I’m looking forward to it. Yeah.
Perry: So let me give our audience a little bit of your background here. Karina Melvin is a psychologist with an MSE in psychoanalytic psychotherapy from UCD School of Medicine, an MA in addiction studies, and almost 10 years of formal training within the field of mental health. She loves working with adults and children experiencing a wide range of issues but really specializes in helping people who experience struggles with body image and weight. Karina is actively engaged in the field of mental health and continues with ongoing study, research, and training. She lectures in psychotherapy at the UCD School of Medicine in St. Vincent’s Hospital, Dublin and is a registered practitioner’s member of The Association for Psychoanalytic Psycotherapy in Ireland, and a member of Psychological Society of Ireland and Irish School of– I’m going to slaughter this word, Lacanian–
Karina: That’s perfect.
Perry: Psychoanalysis. She has presented at various conferences in Ireland and UK and has been published within the field of psycho analysis. Karina has recently launched an online program, Artful Eating, at www.artful-eating.com which helps people lose weight without dieting, by focusing on the psychology of lasting weight loss. Karina, I gave a little overview of you there, stumbled over my words a few times, but why don’t you take a minute, fill in the gaps from that introduction and tell us a little bit more about you personally, and your practice.
Karina: Sure. Well, it’s been a long journey actually. From when I was a child I always wanted to be a therapist. I had this idea of what that was and had this fantasy of working in a room and people coming and me helping them. But then when I became a teenager and a young adult I wasn’t too sure how to go about doing that and I got sidetracked into lots of other different things, but in my mid 20s came back to it and did a psychology degree, and then did my training for therapist. So by the time I was qualified I was so eager to get working. But in Ireland it’s quite difficult to setup a private practice, there is no training on running a business or getting clients or anything like that when you’re doing your clinical formation. So I was kind of just sent out into the world with this hope of getting clients and working. And it was really difficult, it was really, really difficult and I floundered for, I’d say about two years kind of wondering if I needed to go back and retrain in something else. And a lot of friends and family saying, you can’t make a living from doing this. This is a hobby, this isn’t a real career. And so it took a lot of thought and effort, and something that you talk about on the podcast a lot Perry actually. A mindset shift from focusing on just being a therapist to actually running a business and taking that seriously. Once that kind of shift occurred everything fell into place.
Perry: And when did that shift occur for you?
Karina: That shift occurred when I was kind of at the end of my tether and everybody else around me was too because I wasn’t earning any money, I was seeing very few clients and almost applied to retrain as a teacher, a primary school teacher. So I was literally hovering over the application form. I’m going, I really don’t want to do this. I love working as a therapist, there’s got to be another way. And kind of pulling back and going, no, I have to stick with my gut here and find another way. So that was a low point and that was, I guess it was about six months after graduating.
Perry: So you graduated and for six months you were working on building your private practice?
Karina: No, no I wasn’t. I was thinking about it or I thought I was but I wasn’t really doing the right things.
Perry: So tell us about those six months after you graduated, what were you doing then?
Karina: I was applying for jobs and clinics, but because how the system works here is you do your training but you have to amass 400 hours of clinical work in order to get accreditation. And then you have to go through an interview process with a panel and you have to present on the client, and then you get accredited. And then once you’re accredited you’re fully qualified. But the problem is you need clients to build up your hours so it’s a bit of a catch 22. So I was really kind of struggling to get clients and I was seeing people for very low fee and working on word of mouth point to GPs, but my attitude was all wrong Perry, I was very apologetic and I was very– I was lacking in confidence in my own abilities for sure. Even though at that point I had four years training as a psychotherapist, a four year degree in psychology, year’s master’s in addiction studies, and a year in a post grad in psychoanalysis specifically. So well qualified, I just didn’t have that confidence.
Perry: And yeah, to be well qualified and having confidence as a business owner are two completely different things and as you go into private practice you’re becoming a business owner and you don’t get any of that training. You spend all these years building up and coming so qualified in treating people and helping people but the whole business side of things you never get any training in.
Perry: So would you describe this as sort of being the lowest point in your career as a mental health professional?
Perry: I feel like that was a well done question. So how did you persevere through that then? So you have the application for interview to begin the process of becoming an elementary school teacher or primary school teacher, how did you– You put your pen aside and what did you do next?
Karina: I started googling and I started googling how to run a private practice or a private therapy practice and started finding resources on the internet and seeing that there is actually some fantastic stuff out there to help people not in Ireland, in the UK really, but beyond, over your side of the pond. There is just so many fabulous resources. So that just started to sell the seed and then it was also just a real desire not to train as a teacher. It was like, I have to make this work. So I got quite serious and I got a coach.
Perry: And who did you hire as a coach?
Karina: I first hired Lynn Grodzki and she wrote a fabulous book called Building your ideal private practice. And I devoured the book and I got really engaged in the idea of thinking about, well, how should this practice be, how much money do I want to earn, how many hours do I want to work, how many clients do I want to see. Instead of seeing it like this impossibility or that it was so difficult to generate clients actually looking at it from a much more practical perspective. And from there I setup a website and the rest was actually quite easy. I have to say. Once I got my head around the idea that you have to put yourself out there and you should value what you do. I think that was the biggest piece in something perhaps that a lot of therapists, certainly that I encounter here in Ireland, struggle with is valuing their own work. Because the focus is so much on helping others that we aren’t that great at saying, well, I’m worth it. You know?
Perry: And how did you come to terms with valuing your own worth?
Karina: It took time, it took time. There was a period after graduating and after that six months in that period where I thought, okay, I’m going to retrain, and then putting the brakes on that and getting a business coach that actually got fired by a clinic to work for somebody in his clinic and he would– A great guy called Phinean Fallon, and he referred clients to me. So that helped with getting a bit of confidence certainly. And also that people were paying me a decent fee for what I was doing there. Half of it was going to my boss which is fair enough, he was managing the thing, providing the clients, and paying the rent. But that was a great starting point, but quite quickly I realized, even though I loved working with him and I loved working there, that I can do it on my own. And that was with the help of Lynn as well. So then I set off on my own and I just never looked back Perry, I’ve never been busier. And the other piece was I finished up working with Lynn and then I stumbled across Zynnyme, I don’t know if any of your listeners know Miranda and Kelly of Zynnyme. They are amazing.
Perry: They absolutely are, I think a lot of our listeners are familiar with Kelly and Miranda, yeah.
Karina: Very incredible. And so I started working with them, working with Miranda one on one, and she really helped me with my money blocks.
Perry: So you hired Lynn to help you figure out how to build your ideal private practice, figuring out– Okay, how many clients do I want to see a week? How much am I going to charge? How am I going to acquire them? All the basic tenants of business essentially.
Perry: So what did Zynnyme and specifically Miranda, because you said you worked more closely with Miranda, what did they do in the coaching that you hired them for?
Karina: It was kind of like, with Lynn I got to a point and it was not a reflection of Lynn, she’s amazing. I got as far as I could at that time because these kinds of mental shifts that we have to take to move us beyond I can only do this or this is what will work for me and nothing more than that must be pushed past that. But we push past that when we’re ready to and we all know as therapists, that can’t be forced. That’s something that has to come with a lot of time and reflection. But when I started working with Miranda I know you talk about money, so I’ll talk about that because that was one of the big leaks. When I worked with Lynn, she pushed me really hard to charge 80 euro a session, which to explain to those over in the US. In Ireland that is above average in terms of the fee for therapy. We don’t have any insurance panels, people pay the therapist directly. So the typical fee is about 60 euro, would be considered a good fee. So she pushed me really hard to get to a point where I felt comfortable charging 80 euro a session. But when I moved to working with Kelly and Miranda, Miranda just said to me, you need to do the math. You have to pay tax, you have to pay rent, you have to pay membership fees, you have to pay for your continual training. And so suddenly she was eating into that number and making me realize, well hey, that’s– Is it the net profit or the gross profit, I’m not so sure, but in actual fact what you take home is X. So she pushed me then to charge 120 euro a session and all my therapist friends bawked because there are very few people charging that kind of a fee for a session in Ireland, very, very few. And I was relatively young although with a lot of experience. But just valuing myself and valuing my work, it changed my practice because others started valuing me. And from moving to that fee I actually became full quite quickly and I hadn’t been full before that.
Perry: It’s sort of like when you’re trying to price any sort of business or any sort of service. You can price yourself– I’m going to be speaking in American car terms. You can be a Ford, which is good, reliable, dependable. You can be a Lexus or you can be the Rolls Royce. And you’re going to attract different clientele at each different price point, and depending on how you want to structure your business– And obviously you have to provide the value at those different price points and your experience and your qualifications allow you to figure out where is the most appropriate place to price yourself. But you’re also going to attract different clientele and they’re going to interact with you differently.
Perry: So you found that your practice filled up, and when you say filled up, do you mean like– When you worked with Lynn what was your ideal number of clients to be seen in a week?
Karina: My ideal number of clients is 20.
Perry: 20. And that was at 80 euro. Did–?
Karina: But I wasn’t seeing 20 at 80 euro. When I was working in the clinic in the city center for my now good friend I was seeing about 10 clients a week. And then when I moved out on my own I was seeing about say 12 or 13 but that was a huge jump for me because I was being paid directly.
Perry: But in an ideal way your ideal was to be seeing 20 clients per week at 80 euro per session?
Karina: Yes, yes.
Perry: So when you worked with Miranda and you decided to increase your rate to 120 euro per session–?
Karina: She decided. Hahaha.
Perry: Hahaha. Well, she helped you decide.
Karina: It took me a while to get comfortable with that. I’m like, that’s a figure for me but for everybody it’s relative to them and where they’re at in their clinic, but it was only when I got comfortable with it that things started to fall into place. There was a month or two of feeling very uncomfortable about it and feeling disingenuous about it with clients and that was a problem too, but it just took an adjustment period. Because I love what I do, I love working with clients, I know I give them value, so there was that rational in there somewhere. And I’m very committed to ongoing personal development and my young analysis and my own working on my work, so that all comes with it. But after about two months once the phones started ringing– Because I changed my fee in the summer and the summer is a quiet time anyway I think, generally for people because it’s sunny and people are busy and feeling a bit better or not ready to commit to therapy. So it was tricky for the first two months but once September hit and I doubled my fee I became full very quickly, yeah.
Perry: So I want to go back to this question though, your definition of full with Lynn was seeing 20 clients a week at 80 euro. When you raised your rate to 120 euro did you lower the number of clients you wanted to see or did you keep it still at 20?
Karina: I did actually. I wanted to lower the number to 16 because I know there are commitments that are studies and teaching and all of that kind of stuff. But I ended up seeing 20 and more than 20.
Perry: Wow, that’s amazing. So were you full when you were charging 80 euro?
Perry: And then you raise your rate to 120 euro and you became over full?
Perry: And is that the only thing you did at the time?
Karina: Let me have a little think. Around that time, not at the exact same time Perry, but prior to that I had discovered a service, I’m sure there is the equivalence over in US, called What Clinic. Which is basically an advertising service where you pay for inquiry so they advertise your website and they rank very highly on Google. And because my website was relatively new I wasn’t getting a lot of inquiries directly through my website. So I invested in paying for referrals. And that was kind of tricky too because it felt like a lot of money at the time to advertise the website, but that was fantastic because people started ringing through that. But again, that was prior to changing my fee, that was a few months prior to changing my fee that I discovered that. So it was a combination.
Perry: What was it like the first time when someone asked you what your fee was and you had to say 120 euro?
Karina: It was really uncomfortable, hahahaha.
Perry: I would venture to guess that the first few people you proposed your fee to you were not that confident and might have not actually seen these clients, but once you became more confident it probably became a lot easier to get those people to come in as clients?
Karina: Yeah, initially it was– Like I said, it took a bit of adjustment. So it was only when I became truly comfortable with it that that came across and was apparent with the people that we’re ringing me up and inquiring about the appointment.
Perry: And how long ago was this?
Karina: This is last year.
Perry: So about a year ago?
Perry: Exactly a year ago, I would imagine?
Karina: Probably maybe 14 months ago, it was beginning of the summer.
Perry: And my followup question to that is what is your rate now?
Karina: I haven’t changed my rate.
Perry: Okay, 120 euro session still. And are you still seeing over 20 clients a week?
Karina: Actually Perry, I’m pregnant so–
Karina: Thank you. So I’m absolutely trying to reduce the amount of hours I’m doing in preparation for that. I’m also doing a PHD and I’ve also setup a separate online program so I’m trying to carve out space for that. So I’m working towards getting back to about 16 clients a week.
Perry: And that would be a good comfortable spot, I would imagine?
Karina: Yes, absolutely.
Perry: So Karina, over the years we found therapists really struggle with the idea of marketing their business or they feel that marketing and sales is kind of like a dirty word. But as you well know, there’s no way that you can grow a thriving private practice without marketing. What do you feel was the single best marketing move you made for your practice and why do you feel like it worked so well for you?
Karina: My website. 100%, my website. And why, well because it’s my shop front and it’s where people get to find me and– You’re absolutely right Perry, it was really difficult initially to put myself out there. I didn’t even want to have my photo up. Actually, there’s a point, there was definitely a noticeable jump in inquiries once I put my photograph up. And I think it’s because people want to have a sense of what their therapist is going to look like.
Perry: Yes, you want to know who your therapist is. It speaks to you.
Karina: And it’s such a personal thing as well so it’s important that you feel, oh, that person is approachable, you know?
Karina: So even just doing that was really difficult initially, I’m laughing now. But I remember Miranda giving me a lot of stick over that, you have to put your picture up! People aren’t going to call if they can’t relate to you or if they have no idea what to look like or anything like that. So I’m sorry, so that was the other piece. But marketing the website and working on– Because I’ve had a few incarnations of the website but when it started to click was when I realized that it’s not about saying I have done this, that, and the other. I’ve done all of this training. It’s, what is wrong with the potential client, what are their paying points, what do they need help with, and how can you specifically help them or why are you a good fit for them. And communicating that in a website, it just allows people to have the time to get a sense of your approach and your position and I think that that’s the number one thing.
Perry: And I see you have a lot of copy on your website, a lot of really engaging copy. Did you do all that yourself? Did you hire a copywriter to assist you?
Karina: No, I did it myself. Yeah.
Perry: And was that with the encouragement of Miranda sort of giving you guidance or was this on your own or post–? How did that whole structure work out?
Karina: The conversation with Miranda was, it’s not about you. So exactly as I said, they’re the idea that the first thing people need to encounter isn’t what you’re– Because that’s what we think out of, I guess and suppose, a sense of insecurity perhaps. I need to let you know of my training and why I am the right person to help you but she just got me to think about it’s actually about the person that’s coming to your website who’s at a difficult point in their life and is looking for some help, guidance, and answers, and your website is the first place that they can go to get access to some of that. And if then they like what they read they ring. And what I find Perry is people who come to me through my website, they usually just ring up and book. They don’t even want a chat.
Perry: Because you pre-qualify them. They know who you are, they know how you’re going to help them, and they’re ready to sign up. They want your help.
Karina: Yeah, exactly. So that’s why I say the website is the most important thing. And I guess it’s taking about six to eight months to get it up Google Ranking.
Perry: For a new website? Is that what you’re saying? It’s about–
Perry: Yeah. I would agree. Have you heard of Google Sandbox?
Karina: No, I haven’t.
Perry: So there’s a theory called The Google Sandbox where basically any new website is tossed into a sandbox where they have to play for a little while because there are so many websites created every single day. Now Google doesn’t want to rank a website right away. It’s like, hey, you’re new, go hang out here, let me make sure you’re legitimate and that you’re going to stick around and you’re not some spammy website. So make every single website sort of stay in the sandbox to play for the first few months, which can be incredibly aggravating for new businesses who don’t know about that, don’t understand that and just– I mean, SEO is aggravating for businesses in general but to not be aware of The Google Sandbox period can be pretty detrimental.
Karina: Yes, yes.
Perry: And one of the reasons why we encourage people to get websites up and running, even just a standard landing page, before you’re ready to open your private practice. Get through that sandbox period!
Karina: Yes, it’s the first thing. I’m such an advocate now to all my friends and colleagues, to encourage them to move into private practice. And the first thing I do is say, just throw up a page, doesn’t matter what’s on it. Just get your name up there, and when you’re ready it will be ready alongside you.
Perry: Yes. And, you know, websites, we always say here that websites are living breathing creatures and it’s always changing. Your practice is changing, how you want to communicate and portray yourself, it’s always changing. It’s one of the reasons why we’re really proud of ourselves in providing that unlimited technical support because people need to be able to make changes in their website.
Perry: And to have their website grow with their practice.
Karina: That’s so true. And to be able to do that. I’m not tech savvy at all and that’s why the likes of what you guys do is so valuable for people like us because our skills are in other areas. So trying to get your head around business side of things but then also things like SEO and things like, I need to change this or that on my website. And having to ring up a developer every time you want to change something and then waiting for them to get back to you and then being charged each time you change something tiny, that’s a nightmare.
Perry: It is, and it discourages people from making changes to their website which is not good. So Karina, you went to school to become a therapist, not to get your MBA. And you have such a well-educated diverse background in your education but you decided to open your own private practice and you’ve grown into being this thriving business. And you mentioned about how when you were in school they didn’t prepare you at all for private practice and we hear that all the time over here as well. What’s the one thing that you wish you would have learned in school about starting your own business that you were never taught?
Karina: Value yourself. Value yourself, because when you’re in training the focus is very and likely so is the person that you’re going to help, and theory around how to help that person. And of course in Ireland, and I’m sure it’s the same in the US, you have to go through your own therapy or analysis in order to practice so that you’re in a good head space. But I think there was a real sense of– And indeed we were told, this is a vocation, it’s a passion, and it’s not something you should do with the view of earning any money because if that’s your motivation you’re in the wrong business. And I think that’s fair enough and people shouldn’t work with the view of what they’re going to earn, but if you’re doing something you love and you’re good at it you deserve to get paid for that. And I think there’s a slight difference there between working for money or working hard and valuing what we do. And I think that also with therapy there is a limit to the amount of people you can see a week and there is burnout. And a lot of therapists suffer from burnout, and if you kind of take care of yourself, take care of your time, and charge in a manner that alives you, that facilitates you to do that then you’re going to be the best for every single client that you see. Rather than by Friday being really burned out entirely.
Perry: And that’s pretty important.
Karina: Yeah. So that would be number one, because there was certainly the sense that it’s almost impossible to run a successful private practice. And I know that there are different challenges in the US because there’s the insurance system over there so a lot of people work through– I don’t know much about it. Whereas over here that’s not the case. But at the same time then people would say, well, people aren’t prepared to pay that much for therapy because it’s not covered under insurance.
Perry: Yeah, it’s definitely a challenging obstacle in the market here that you’re starting to see a much more pronounced shift to cash pay, but it’s very dependent on which market you’re in. In California it’s a lot more prominent, versus out on the East Coast you don’t see as much private pay. And I’m not sure if that’s because the insurance options are better on the East Coast or if it’s just the mind shift on the West Coast. It’s very challenging for a lot of mental health professionals to figure out how to build a private practice by taking insurance, not being cash pay.
Karina: I can imagine it’s challenging for people.
Perry: Alright Karina, now we’re going to move into the final part of our interview, the part we like to refer to as Brighter Insights. And our goal here is to really distill down your experience and your advice into little sound bites and quick answers that our audience can use to inspire, motivate, and excite them in growing their private practice. Are you ready?
Karina: Yes, I am.
Perry: What or whom inspired you to become a mental health professional?
Karina: My aunt. So my aunt is schizophrenic and when I was very young I remember we would visit her. My father took care of her for quite a bit and I just always was fascinated by how her experience with the world was so different and why was that. And what was going on for her, and what was that struggle about because I really enjoyed her company but she’s very unwell. She’s being hospitalized for the past 30 years. So I suppose a question around that sparked an interest for me, and then a lifelong interest in mental health and mental health disorders and then have them well being on the other side of that, on the flip side of that.
Perry: What is it that you do to clear your head and get a fresh start in your day?
Karina: I meditate.
Perry: I think that’s the most common answer. I’m so excited to– In about a year when we have close to 100 episodes, create an info-graphic and sort of block out what the most common answers are to things. I think that by now ten times people say meditate.
Karina: It’s amazing, yeah. Everybody should do it. I encourage everyone to do it. It’s just incredible.
Perry: What are some tools that you use in your private practice to leverage the power of technology so that it’s no longer a hurdle but instead an asset for you?
Karina: What are some tools I use? I suppose Facebook, social media, it’s very intuitive and easy to use. So I’m getting over the block of putting myself out there as a therapist and practitioner on social media. I’m managing to be professional about that. So I suppose social media and my website.
Perry: And I see you have a newsletter subscription on your website, what do you use to manage your subscriptions?
Karina: Ah, MailChimp.
Perry: Perfect. What’s the quote that you hold near and dear, something that has helped formulate your perspective on life or has inspired, motivated, or provided guidance for you?
Karina: This is when I’m sure plenty of people would have said before but it just resonates so much with me and it’s, “Carpe Diem!”, “Seize the day!” When you’re working for yourself you have to be a self-starter, you have to be very self-motivated. I see clients in the afternoon and evening so technically I needn’t get up out of bed if I didn’t want to, so you got to get up and make the most of the day. That’s my quote, yeah.
Perry: Absolutely. If you could recommend one book to our audience, what would that book be?
Karina: Well, I’m toying on this question because there’s two directions I’d encourage people to go. One would be to check out Lynn Grodzki’s Building your ideal private practice but the other wouldn’t be a book but it would be ZynnyMe, to check out their website, check out their free resources. They have amazing trainings for therapists.
Karina: They’re so inspiring so there’s just so much fantastic free information that they’re offering that you can get up, get going, and get inspired. So definitely check them out.
Perry: And of course, we’ll have links to everything that Karina has mentioned here including Lynn Grodzki’s book and ZynnyMe in this week’s show notes at Brightervision.com/session33. Alright Karina, last question. If you moved to a new city tomorrow, you didn’t know a single soul and all that you had with you was your computer and 100 dollars to start a new private practice, what is it that you would do on your very first day?
Karina: I would setup a website. Hahaha.
Perry: Great call.
Karina: I know that’s what other people say but it’s true because people have to know you exist and when we’re looking for anything now we Google it. So I would take a couple of hours out, sit down, write the copy, get some photos and put my website out there. That would be the number one thing.
Perry: Absolutely. Well Karina, where can our listeners find you to connect and learn more about you?
Karina: Well, you can find me on social media, I’m Karina Melvin, or you can check out my website Artful-eating.com which is a venture that I just started to develop because, as I was saying to you, the clinic got so full so fast I wasn’t sure what to do next. We want to progress in forward and I wanted to grow so I created an online program which is around helping people to lose weight as you mentioned before without the pain of dieting. So looking at the psychology of lasting weight loss. And so I have a regular blog and I have newsletters and lots of tools and tips there for people. But also I suppose ideas around how to market yourself and put yourself out there because I know that that’s something that people struggle with. So I think that would be a good place to drop by.
Perry: And we’ll definitely have to have you on the show to chat more about the online segment of your business, because I think that’s an episode in of itself. If you don’t mind give the pitch to our audience. Haha.
Karina: But also just I suppose to let people know– Because when you get full quickly there’s that feeling of a lack of progression, I guess, unless you want to increase your fee. But also a realization that you’re earning for hour and there’s a limit to that. So to kind of move out of the chair while maintaining the space on the chair I think is the natural progression for a lot of therapists if they can find something that they’re passionate about, that they can transfer their skills in a way that makes sense to them. So that’s what I ended up doing.
Perry: Absolutely. Well Karina, thank you so much for being so generous with your time, your expertise, and your knowledge. This has been such a great episode and I can’t wait to hear feedback from it, I’m sure it’s going to be so popular with our audience. And I know I speak for everyone listening today, we really appreciate all the great advice that you provided and the therapist experience that you have shared. Thanks again.
Karina: Thank you so much Perry, it’s been a pleasure, a real pleasure. Thank you so much!
Perry: And thank you so much for tuning in today. If you have a question for us please email it to us at email@example.com and, of course, if you’d like to launch a website head on over to Brightervision.com and drop us a line. For just 59 dollars a month our team of web professionals will build you a website that’s as unique as your practice, provide you with unlimited tech support, and complementary SEO so people can find you online. That does it for today, thanks again for listening and we will see you next week.