Perry: Hi everyone , welcome to episode 3 of The Therapist Experience mini-series on becoming a private pay private practice where we interview industry experts on their experience , guidance and advice on transitioning to a fully cash-based practice. To listen previous episodes of this mini-series, please head over to brightervision.com/privatepay. Today’s episode is on how to drop an insurance panel and we have one of my favorite people in our industry joining me Kelly Higdon from Zynnyme. Kelly, how are you today?

Kelly: Good, thanks for having me.

Perry: Kelly is such a fantastic positive in our industry and has worked with, gosh, must be thousands of therapist at this point Zynnyme has reached.

Kelly: Something like that.

Perry: Well, cool. Thanks for being on and Kelly has so much great information to share with everybody here. You’ll be able to head on over and see the show notes in this week episode at brightervision.com/private pay3. Let me tell our audience a little more about you Kelly and then we’ll jump into the meet of the episode. Kelly Higdon is licensed marriage and family therapist in California with a virtual private practice. She is the co-founder of ZynnyMe, and co-creator of the Business School Bootstrap for Therapists where she helps therapists in all phases of business get a solid foundation in the business practices that improve clinical outcomes. When she isn’t coaching or providing therapy, you can find her at traveling and having adventures with her family or on the track playing roller derby. Kelly gave a little overview of you there but why don’t you dive in a little more, tell our audience about you, what you focus on and a little more about both Zynnyme and your virtual private practice.

Kelly: Yeah, I started my practice maybe eight years ago. I had an office, the whole brick and mortar thing and couple years ago, I sold that practice and took my practice completely virtually. I keep it very small now. I only see a few clients and the rest of the time I am in ZynnyMe where I work with Miranda Palmer and we coach therapist on building there ideal kinda of private practice. We are often pegged the cash -pay coaches, however, I do think interns can work for people sometimes, I’m not as bias as everyone thinks so hang in here, you may just discover that it’ll work for you.

Perry: Well, why do you think that you have been pegged as the cash-pay coaches?

Kelly: It’s because a lot of times when you sit down and do the numbers with people especially for solo practitioners and master -level clinicians, the number don’t make sense in terms of reimbursement and the kind of income that they are trying to generate. Psychologists often do have higher reimbursement rates or certain areas of the country do and it can work out but we just find it commonly when you do the numbers, people are like, oh, wait, I’m not going to be able to get to my goals . I’m not going to be able to sustain my business this way.

Perry: Those are some sober realizations.

Kelly: Yeah.

Perry: What kind of numbers do you look at ZynnyMe to help your clients get an understanding if insurance is a good fit for them or not?

Kelly: Sure, some of the things that -we actually have a whole spreadsheet where you plug in numbers. How much retirement you want to be putting in that year? How much you want to take home? Your expenses, all these kind of things and then you can start to see like if this panel is actually gonna help you to get to where you wanna be . So, we’re looking at your financial goals and not just , I think that when people are leaving there full time job and they’re going into their private practice , they think about their take home pay, right, and oh, I just need to make that much in order to leave but there’s also the additional benefits that you’re being paid that you don’t see in your bank account such as retirement matching, health insurance, workers comp, all these other things that you want an account for when you’re moving into your own business and so really looking at some of those numbers is important.

Perry: And the spreadsheet, is this used just for clients or is this a publicly accessible thing that we can share on this week’s show notes.

Kelly: It’s in our boot camp.

Perry: I had a feeling that was the case.

Kelly: No, but I do have a worksheet where you can look at how to set your fee and then will help you get started as to the kind of fee you need in order to make some of your financial goals and then you can yourself just go look and see what the insurance companies are reimbursing to see if it’s going to make sense for that.

Perry: That’s a great point and you did mention though that typically if you’re trying to be in a group practice and grow a larger practice the insurance can work, those numbers can work. Is that correct?

Kelly: Sometimes it can. Yeah, totally.

Perry: And would mind elaborating as why those numbers work more regularly?

Kelly: Because when you have employees, the cost to have the employee versus the reimbursement rate from the insurance, you can still have a profit from that. It’s just the way it kind of works? Maybe you’re seeing cash-paying clients. You have employees that you’re paying per hour or on a salary and then you have the insurance company reimbursing you. Usually, there’s is difference there between what you pay and what you were reimburse that adds to the profitability of the practice.

Perry: Good old business 101 there, right?

Kelly: Yeah.

Perry: So, Kelly, when you were in Private Practice, were you a cash-based private practice?

Kelly: No, not to start and nobody- I mean, it’s such a blip on my radar so a lot of people don’t know this about me. When I started my practice and this why I’m really passionate about this issue. I listened to what other people told me and I feel like I had to get on to an insurance panel and so I got on my first panel not understanding really what the reimbursement would be and what it would take to get reimburse. Now, I will say, the things like simple practice software like Electric health records software, fairness, those types of things. They do make it alot easier to do billing and I use a software back then that felt very clunky and archaic and it was frustrating and I was just – after one month of being on this panel, I got off.

Perry: Wow that was really the smallest blip that I ever heard.

Kelly: Right, it was such a blip and when I got off the panel, it took 3 months to terminate my contract so I guess I was technically on the panel for 4 months.

Perry: And then during those 4 months, do you accept patients on that insurance panel.?

Kelly: No, you don’t have to accept patients but if you do accept a patient who is on that insurance, you have to build that insurance. You know so you can’t say, oh, I’m gonna contractually cross BlueShield but only for 10 clients and after that everybody will pay me cash, no, if any of those clients that you take are on the panel, you have to build the panel.

Perry: So, how does someone know that they are ready to drop their insurance panel and go cash pay? Is it they are running the numbers, is there like a certain emotional feeling you feel from your clients, how do you recognize that exactly?

Kelly: I think one of the biggest emotional reactions of people is frustration and burn out. Whenever you’re in the space of I have to. You find yourself saying oh, I have to be on the panel. Well, that’s one way to really lock yourself in and kind of feel victimized. I find a lot of people who are ready to drop insurance and are sort of in that place of like , I thought I had to do this and I’m exhausted , they’re seeing twice as many clients as they would if they were on a cash-pay base and so they are really starting to get burned out. That is one way when you’re full and you are kind of stuck at a certain kind of level and the certain amount of clients that you have to keep seeing. That’s one way to know. Another way to know is before you even get full and you run the numbers and you realize, oh, okay.

Perry: I need to be seeing 10 clients a day, six day a week.

Kelly: I will say that can happen even if you’re in cash-pay practice. you may say like , I need to make $400,000 dollars and for those of you that just heard that number and you’re freaking out, that’s okay but there are therapist that make that but realize that maybe that’s not all going to come from one-on-one services so what we’re talking about really is the income, the ability to get one -one services, what does that need to be and when you do the numbers , I always encourage people, of course, you’re doing your quarterly taxes and then an annual review and my clients know I do an annual review of my numbers and so they know that my fee may go up and that’s in my informed consent as well so if this is something you also want to help your clients understand as part of the work is that every year there’s a review of the fee and things like that.

Perry: Do you find that certain niches work better to remain on insurance panel than others?

Kelly: Oh my gosh. I’ve never been ask that question.

Perry: I’d like to ask that hard questions here. You know it’s something that came out of the blue over the last few days. My mother-in-law is in town and she has a private practice in Jacksonville, Florida and they do a lot of substance abuse and you know, I was talking with her and I said , hey, we’re doing this mini-series on private pay, do you see a trend in the Jacksonville, Florida area and you know, in your industry of people moving more to private pay and she said , you know, I see it but I think I typically see it in solo practices and for substance abuse , it doesn’t typically-it wouldn’t work for us too well. Have you noticed any trends like that in your clients of certain niches that might work better or not really?

Kelly: Well, come out to California where we have cash-paid treatment centers abounding out here for substance abuse.

Perry: Oh my goodness.

Kelly: Yeah. You know I think if – I do think that either you’re gonna consider insurance or you’re going to consider a non-profit status if you want to work with people who are homeless, that are on government assistance, those kind of things, you may end up- maybe you don’t need to do insurance but what you need to do is more non-profit kind of business. I can see in that realm but I would say that every single niche that I have explored beyond that in terms of diagnosis or phase of life or life issue, you will find both side of the coin, you will find insurance and you will find cash-pay. If you think about it Perry, like how many clients do you really need a year?

Perry: Right.

Kelly: Like we’re not talking about thousand people in a year that you’re going to serve , we’re talking about a slither of a the population and yeah, it makes a little less overwhelming when you start think about in terms of your what we call market share in the business world . You know this word, but if you’ve got X amount of people so seeking services and you only need like .01% percent makes it pretty doable when you’re thinking about doing cash pay.

Perry: And working out those numbers and having an understanding of what your numbers need to be break things up into like these bite -size pieces and I think it’s a lot easier to dip your toes in the water and then you know, put your next foot in the water and slowly wade in and start figuring out I need this number of clients and so if I want to be seeing X number of clients, I need why number of leads coming every month. How do I and start figuring out where in the process you need to work and focus on to improve your business overall and allow you to achieve those goals that you’re looking for.

Kelly: Right, that’s like drinking out of the fire hydrant with the Dixie cup as they say. I’ll break it down. I think the first thing is to look at what fee do you really need and you can link to worksheet for that but that starts with, how many clients can you see per week and still be amazing present, on top of it on the first session and the last session. Some of us do great with a fully stacked day twice others do great with just a few clients everyday 5 days, you gotta know yourself as a clinician and you gotta start with that number because there’s nothing worse than saying, “I need to make this much so I have to see this many clients,” and if that’s not your highest and best as a clinicians we don’t want to do that, right , nobody wants to do that so start with the ideal number of clients now you may be starting out and saying, I don’t know , well, start somewhere, you’ve gotta kind of check your gut. You’ve had some experiences as an intern or in previous workplaces and you just start with that number and know that this will change over time. Your needs are going to change over time. Your circumstances are gonna change over time then you’re going look at your just gonna break down the expenses of your practices and we also have a checklist for that rent, software, liability, CEUs, licensure, clinical consultation. Just some of the basics and what you’re looking at there and you’re gonna look at how much you want to be taking home, that’s an important number there and factoring in that you will be paying taxes and if you’re California, oh, will you paying taxes compared to some of the other states because we have state income tax here then you’re gonna look at how much time off you want. Now people are like I work 50 weeks of the year, well, you need to also count for sick time and really you should be taking off more than two weeks out of the year. I really think [inaudible 14:45 ] take time off for training. Take time off for your own mental health, I say at least 4-8 weeks or less and so, yeah we have a whole formula on how you should take how much time, how many clients you can see, how much time you want to take off and then how much income you want to bring and that will tell you your fee.

Perry: I hope people are taking notes there and if you were not, you can go ahead and re-listen this at brightervision.com/privatepay3 cause Kelly just gave you a road map to figure out what your fees need to be and how many clients you need to see. Kelly, along those lines, you brought up an interesting point and that was taxes and I’m interested to hear what your perspective is on this when you’re working clients does a conversation of incorporation structure ever come up?

Kelly: Oh, of course, yes.

Perry: Do you guys provide guidance on that? How do you work that out and what do you feel is an ideal corporate structure for a cash-pay private practice?

Kelly: Usually, it depends on your state. It depends on your financial situation personally, so I have a husband who is currently employed and makes a certain amount of money and my practice, once it hits a certain amount of income. My account said, “You know, you have a tax benefit here to be a corporation so really, you need to sit down with an accountant and figure out what that number is. Usually, its 30,000$ or more in general, I’m just speaking generally, I’m not an accountant here but usually you’re gonna start off as a solo prop, sole proprietor sorry and then you’ll move into a corporation status. It makes sense in terms of really the tax benefits…..

Perry: Right.

Kelly: if you’re gonna end up having payroll and all these kind of things so….

Perry: You can be a corporation just as one person?

Kelly: I have two. I have a limited liability corporation with Miranda, that’s ZynnyMe and we own that 50/50 and then I have my own corporation which is Kelly Higdon, Licensed Marriage Family Therapist (LMFT) which is just a ridiculous requirement from California that you have to put your entire license in the name of your corporation but anyway, talk to an account and an attorney

Perry: And that will help you to get corporate stuff setup and that can also help factor in on what your ideal fee should be because when you’re incorporated and you could become ideally once you hit that 30,000$ dollar a year point and I remember that being the rough point with my businesses as well when you want to incorporate. You can incorporate into an escorporate which is generally very tax favorable, pay yourself a salary and any of the profit that’s left on top, it passes through to you and you pay a much lower tax rate on that than you would otherwise so definitely if you are in that phase, chat with an accountant and or an attorney to help with that.

Kelly: Yeah definitely that. I was talking with my husband last night cause we were gonna start maybe another business and I was like well , we don’t need to incorporate that yet but we will. you start to and you know it all feels very overwhelming when you first start and to get an handle on the financial flow and tax benefits but this is why you do need to hire experts like I can’t stress that enough, please factor that into your budget paying for an accountant and at least an attorney to consult with so that you’re doing things in a way accountants pay for themselves. He’s saving you money legally and it’d be totally worth it so have an expert. There are things that I don’t know like if you ask me about taxes, I know that was told that should do it. I can tell you the benefits but how to understand how it all works, I don’t totally understand every year I just keep asking my accountant more and more questions so there is value in having experts in your corner to support your business totally.

Perry: Absolutely and that’s just an expense that you have to factor in , in terms of how many clients you need to see and what it looks like when you’re moving off insurance panels.

Kelly: Yeah.

Perry: so spinning back round to insurance panels, let’s say that I’m audience member, I’m listening today and I’m on multiple insurance panels. Do you suggest that they are listening this and they are so inspired and they want to go out there and start transitioning to a cash pay practice, would you suggest to them that they drop them one at a time all at once pick and choose, what kind of timeline do you recommend to people in terms of moving off insurance panels?

Kelly: Sure, this is really a fun part about private practice, you get to do it how you want. I don’t recommend doing it all at once. What I recommend you do is you get your contracts out so this is processed. Read them all. Find out how long of a notice you need to give. How long you’re tied to that contract. So, for example some contracts, you give a 60 day notice and then you’re off the panel. Some of them you give a notice and then six months for them to process so kinda want to put down and then that will inform you which panels need to go first. You may look at your reimbursement right. Like write down all your clients, what insurance panels they are on; what the reimbursement rate is for those and usually want to eliminate the lowest pain or the biggest pain in the butt.

Perry: That’s a good Strategy there.

Kelly: These insurance company may reimburse a ton but it’s costing you hours and hours which you could be seeing clients so actually the reimburse rate though, it looks high, it actually quite low because there’s s a lot of cost into being on that panel so you want to eliminate based upon those two things either the biggest pain to work with or lowest reimbursing and then you kinda see a timeline as to when you need to put in your notice and how long it’ll take before you’re off that panel and you can spread it out overtime and then as you’re spreading that out overtime ,you can start targeting who you’re marketing towards the cash-paying clients that you’re wanting to accrue but you will find and this is something I’ve seen a lot in boot-camp cause a lot of people come into boot-camp and then their like oh wait, I don’t want to be on insurance anymore and there’s a lot of fear of like I’m going to lose all my clients and hands down , they really don’t they’ve actually ended up retaining a lot of those clients , there’s been some closing of cases and things like that but overall clients stayed .

Perry: Wow, that’s great.

Kelly: And here, you can do things like where you step them up to your cash pay fee like when you give notice to the clients, you can say like as of this date, I won’t be on your panel anymore, my cash fee is this and I realize that’s like 3 times what you’re used to paying so this is what my new fee is going to be and then six months after that we’re going to step you up towards my cash rate. You can do it that way but you don’t have to. You can just say like this is the fee that is going to be and then process that with them. Yeah.

Perry: And this a one-on-one conversation that you’d recommend each individual client?

Kelly: We in the boot-camp, really encourage people to draw up a letter and this goes even for raising your fees where it is just says it’s this time of year when I’ve evaluate my business and as of X date, I will no longer be on panel. I really value our relationship and working together, this is fee that will be and so you kind of have it all written out for them but I bring that to session, I talk to the client about it but you know sometimes you hear something that might overwhelm you and then it turns into that wapwapwap and you say look, we’re going to keep talking about this. This is an explanation of what I just told so you can go home and read it and come back with more questions so I do like give them something physical to hold onto to process but also I talk about in session first.

Perry: And so if I’m a therapist and I’m eager to start moving into cash-pay what do you think is a good rule of thumb in terms of retention percentage for the clients that I’m currently seeing. What percentage you think that you typically see people retain when they transition into being a cash-pay?

Kelly: Yeah, I was- Like I said, okay, I’m just gonna guess here. I do not have hard data on this. I guess I could do a total research pole of the people I’ve worked with.

Perry: But gut feels are good enough in alot of these cases.

Kelly: Okay. Gut feel, I’d say that they retain at least like 70% percent.

Perry: That’s phenomenal.

Kelly: Yeah.

Perry: And that speaks to the great work that our community is doing out there. That’s such a phenomenal number there and it doesn’t mean that you if you only are able to retain 50 % percent, you’re still doing a great job, that’s phenomenal. I mean, you’re basically telling somebody “hey, you’re going to have to be paying me three times or two times or four times what you were paying previously in order to retain my services. That’s a huge pill to swallow.

Kelly: Yeah, and I will say that one of things that has helped retained that is coming with plans to ease the client in cause it felt too jarring and I totally get that. I’ve done that with clients when I’ve raised my fee before too but I think your relationship with clients there’s also going to be a natural attrition, this can spur the client to say, “Oh crap, I really need to get stuff done in our work together or oh my gosh, I think I’m good to go so this kinda also can be very therapeutic and the work with the client, it can be bring stuff that they’ve been putting off working through or can really bring to light the good work that has happen and the readiness to stop therapy which is all good.

Perry: You brought up a great word there ‘attrition’, a natural attrition, do you find or believe that individuals who are paying a full cash fee are more less or equally likely to turn out, order or stopping going to therapy as someone who’s coming in via an insurance panel. I know am asking you a lot of gut feels questions here Kelly but there’s few people out there who have the kind of experience that you do. This is a once in a lifetime interview that we got here, maybe twice, hopefully we can get you again.

Kelly: No pressure. I will say that in my experience when people have had insurances practices, they have mention that there’s more no-shows but that comes down to your business process and how you handle no shows and I do think payment for services is part of the therapeutic relationship and it’s something that’s risk for the mill whether they’re paying a 20$ dollar co-pay or a 150$ fee. So, I think that exchange is another symbolism of commitment, However, yes there are exceptions to the rule so for those of you who are like, “I had a client that I saw for pro-bono and they did work,” awesome, but I do think and I’m not doubting that but I do think that there is something about the fee is exchange is part of the therapy, being an important part and yes, there are more- I guess I’m afraid of being judged , I don’t know why I’m just not gonna say it. Yes, I think sometimes when people are invested and they’re just kinda paying a minimal amount, sometimes there’s a greater attrition there.

Perry: And that can be co-relation not necessarily causation, we’re just exploring this topic , having a free-willing conversation, trying to help you understand what to expect and what to possibly expect and prepare for in this process cause everybody who’s listening this right now, I would imagine if you’re listening right now, you’re invested in one way in considering the possibility of transition to a cash-based practice and your experience if you’re in Ann Arbor, Michigan might be very different from someone’s else experience in Nashville, Tennessee which might may be very different from someone’s experience in San Diego, California so there’s so many variables and factors and things that go into play including your own business process and how you conduct but you know, I think it’s important for our audience to have a general idea of what you’ve seen because you’ve worked with probably , you and Miranda are known are pegged as the cash-pay coaches, you know, you have more experience with this in so many other people and I know our audience is really appreciated you been as forthright and open and you know, providing them with the value that you are here.

Kelly: Yeah, no thanks Perry. I mean it’s just one of those thing where my belief is that how you run your business is directly co-related to your outcomes and I do think so some of these decisions to take insurance and all these kind of things do factor into clinical outcomes and I do think too, if you think about one of things of why people get on panels is because they are like, the insurance company will send me clients so it’s almost like receiving some power. I’m not saying everybody but some people like choose insurances like that will be my sources of referrals and I really don’t have market. The insurance company does it for me so when release some of that power over that can trickle down into other aspects of the business as well.

Perry: That’s a phenomenal point there. So, speaking of getting clients and being on insurance panels, what happens if you get a referral while you’re in the process of terminating the insurance that the referral is on?

Kelly: Sure, you can do couple things, you can refer them out or if you feel that it’s a good fit, you can really help them. Just be honest and say, “currently, I’m on your insurance panel and as of X date, I won’t be in your fee and your fee will be XYZ after that.” One of the things, I really want you to do and anybody listening, please do this, when you’re talking to a client ask them, how long do you think that you’re gonna need therapy for? Like, how long do you think this is – like what is your expectation per how long therapy takes? And so can happen is if you take them and you say on X date , I will no longer be taking your insurance, they may think like , Okay, I need to solve this issue within this amount of time,” and you want to kind of remove that sort of pressure cooker and you want to be sure that you’re clear about those expectations and bring some of those subconscious kind of things to the forefront before you take them as a client because that is a recipe for you know the client not getting their need met and being frustrated and you being as a clinician so it’s kind of part of the informed consent process but you can totally take clients, you just have to bill an insurance and let them know what’s coming down the pipeline.

Perry: Got ya. I’ve never heard that question before, why do you feel like that’s a really important question for therapist to ask?

Kelly: Because often therapist are not exploring the expectations of a clients and you wouldn’t believe how often clients have come to me and said , wow, I think you know just a couple sessions and I’ll be good and I’m not a brief therapist Perry. I’m not at all. It’s interesting that all over my site it’s very clear that I’m not a brief therapist. You said, “you resonated with my site,” thinking it’s going to be two sessions and end up staying well over a year so I’m just honest about that and it really helps them understand what they’re committing to and be clear that it’s a good fit. So, I always like to explore expectations, like, okay, what were you thinking in terms of how long this would take and what would it look like if things were betting? What is the sign for you that therapy is working? That’s another question I also ask so for me it’s really about checking those expectations because when people tell me like, “I saw a client for three sessions and they bailed,” I often wonder or ask, did you ask them how long they were thinking they would need therapy or what it would be like cause often times people feel worse before they feel better because they’re actually tackling this stuff that they’ve been avoiding and have a no-show inertia around.

Perry: Such a great point and thank you so much for sharing that.

Kelly: Yeah.

Perry: Kelly, what are some common mistakes that you see therapist making when they decide to drop their insurance panels?

Kelly: The biggest one I see is people waiting too long.

Perry: That’s a good one

Kelly: And hands -down, most bootcampers at least talk to me and message me say, “why didn’t I do this sooner?”

Perry: Why don’t they?

Kelly: Because they thought that it would tank their life. They taught that they would be homeless on the street and I always tell people like , you know, you’re a smart person and if things start to tank, don’t you think that you could do something differently and they’re like yes, yeah. You know like, you’re capable of problem solving and making a difference so I think it’s just this fear of going back to eating ramen and not being able to survive or you there’s judgement , oh my gosh., Perry, today, I was doing a Facebook live. One of our boot-campers made a comment that she gets a lot of judgement from other people in here specific niche saying like , how dare you charge cash-pay when these people are already having- she’s works in infertility, they’re already paying out-the-wazoo for infertility treatment, you should be on insurance , like how dare you and so I think that’s the other think that’s like , time and time again, the supervisor saying you could never be cash-pay and so here you have this person who’s in a position of authority saying you can’t do that and so all this stuff culminates and kinda keeps from making the decision so that’s – I think that’s the biggest thing that I see, the other I see they don’t address the marketing for who’s going replace the insurance -based client.

Perry: That’s a really important one.

Kelly: Yeah and they don’t look at how the messaging might need to change where there marketing might need to change. All these sorts of things. So, your business plan is going to shift when you change who you’re going to see and how you’re going acquire those clients so doing some research is really important in this area.

Perry: How do you think that the messaging should change in a general sense?

Kelly: Yeah, generally speaking people even if they have insurance may not want to use it because of privacy issues and I’m not saying use fear tactics, please hear me but there are people who really value the private aspect. They don’t want their employer knowing which they can have access to and know. This happens, I live in a military town so many people that are in the higher ranks of the marines and the navy do not use their insurance because they do not want it getting back to anyone and their employer and the government that they are seeking mental health services so sometimes it’s that sometimes, it’s really just focusing on what makes your services awesome, really, what is so unique and special about what you do?

Perry: And that should be fun.

Kelly: That the value is there. I think that is what we all should be doing regardless of our insurance or cash-pay and it’s a benefit to the client to know what they’re investing in and you gotta have some confidence and awareness to who are as a therapist and what you bring to the table.

Perry: I know you and Miranda are fans of having niche, if someone is listening to the show today and they want to move to a cash-based private but are more of generalist right and haven’t really determined and figured out how and what and whom they want to specialize in working, do you recommend that they figure that out first and spend the time and the energy to determine how they should position themselves in the market before they transition to a cash-based practice.

Kelly: I think niching is an ongoing process and if you’re waiting for that miracle you might just be waiting forever because what you choose as one niche will evolve over time often and that is okay so I think just starting the process simultaneously is good and doing some researching round the niche. One of the things that I encourage people to do is look at the client that they currently are seeing , where they find the most synchronicity, where they get the most energized and seeing if there’s a like a common thread . I call it the golden thread, the thing that binds all the other together, you know, there’s usually this kind of core concept core issue and then start there. Start with what you have before you try and create something new. It’s always easier.

Perry: Great advice there.

Kelly: Yeah.

Perry: Well, Kelly, where can our audience find out more about you and learn about and follow you and the great advice that you have to share?

Kelly: Yeah, you can check us at Zynnyme.com and we’ve got over at least 14 hours of free training that you can watch on niche setting your fee, marketing, all that kind of stuff and you can also find out about our bootcamp. It’s coming up in March, we’ll be opening cart for that and that’s for any therapist whether you’ve started or you’ve been in practice 30 years but you’re really looking shift your business practices so that you’ve have better clinical outcomes so that you have more joy in your life . Yeah, you may resonate with that too.

Perry: And for our audience that might be listening to this in, let’s say May or January in the future, when do you hold the business school bootcamp each year?

Kelly: Yeah, we do it twice a year in the spring and then the fall so just check you’ll see the stuff but the free trainings are up there. We do a free webinar every month so there’s lots of opportunity, just take the free stuff and run with it. I love it when that happens.

Perry: I agree. Well, Kelly thank you so much for joining us today. For audience listening, you can find out all the great resources that Kelly mentioned including links to their phenomenal webinars, to the business school bootcamp and all of the other great resources that were mentioned here over at brightervision.com/privatepay3 and to listen to other episodes in this mini-series, you can head on over to brightervsion.com/privatepay where we’ll have links to this entire mini-series and all the other great guest that we’ve had over the course of this event. Kelly, thanks again for joining us, it was wonderful, I always love getting a chat with you and this was just phenomenal advice, thank you so much for joining us today.

Kelly: Thanks for having me and asking the hard questions. I loved it.

Perry: Absolutely. Well, thank you all for listening and we’ll see you all next week.